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John Yates 
Moderator
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There probably are as many theories about bird dog breeding as there are people to espouse them. There are, however, some general concepts to keep in mind when breeding, selecting a stud dog or buying a puppy. My comments will combine common sense, the basics of genetics and about 35 years of making mistakes and sometimes doing things right.
The first rule of thumb is that pedigrees don't produce puppies. A fancy pedigree is, in itself, a poor indicator of the quality of a litter of pups. Dogs make the puppies, and what matters is the quality of the individual dogs in the pedigree -- not just the parents, but all of the dogs for several generations back. Championship titles, field trial wins and production records are the closest that we can come to an objective standard for evaluating pedigrees, although this is far from foolproof.
What is transmitted to a pup is not a collection of the names and performance records in the pedigree. A pup inherits the actual traits of the dogs in the pedigree, or (more accurately) some combination of the actual traits. Thus, the more you can learn about the actual traits and characteristics of dogs in a pedigree, the better the odds of finding or breeding puppies that will be the kind of dogs you desire. Based on what you want, you will learn to avoid certain dogs in a pedigree, and concentrate on other dogs.
If you don't have the background to fully evaluate a pedigree, then the best common sense approach is to stack up as many field trial champions and winners up close (in the first three generations) as possible. There simply is a higher probability that field trial winners will have desireable bird dog characteristics. Remember too, that if a dog in a pedigree doesn't have field trial wins, you will have no way of telling if it is good, bad or indifferent.
Field trial wins are not a perfect measure of a dog. However, the simple fact is that they are the only measure of a dog that is available if you haven't seen the dog yourself or done a lot of research. It's easy to criticise using field trial winners as a measure of a dog, but the critics usually are quite silent if you ask them to suggest a better way.
The best measure of a dog is seeing it yourself, preferably several times.
In my experience, I look at pedigrees as a blend of several generations. In most litters I have raised, I would estimate that about 25% of the puppies' characteristics come from the parents, 25% from the grandparents, 25% from the great grandparents and 25% from previous generations. This is a subjective observation, but I'd bet you a cold beer that it would stand the test of genetic research, at least in principle. Looking at it this way, the influence of each parent on a litter is about 12.5 percent...and each great grandparent has an influence of about 3 percent. That is why it is important to "stack up" as many good dogs as possible in the first three generations (and also to avoid bad dogs and unknown dogs as much as possible). What I look for is depth of pedigree, which could be defined as the maximum number of good dogs up close.
In evaluating a pedigree, I give proven performance on wild birds about 10 times more weight than performance on planted birds. To handle wild birds, a dog can't have many serious faults or make many serious mistakes. Those are characteristics that I want to see in pedigrees.
The most important thing (but the most difficult for a beginner) is to gain enough personal experience-based knowledge of bird dogs to know what you want, and what you don't want. Find dogs that you like, and try to identify breeds, bloodlines and individual dogs that you like. Build your pedigree choices on this knowledge, and never stop learning and looking for something better.
The vast majority of bird dog puppies born every year are from outcross matings, which means that the parents do not share many common ancestors or come from different bloodlines. The rule of thumb about outcross breeding is that there will be a wide variation within a litter. Most of the puppies will not resemble each other, and will look, act and hunt very differently from each other. If you use or buy from outcross matings, make doubly sure that the pedigrees are packed solidly with proven good dogs. Remember, the traits are passed along -- not the dogs!
If you use or buy from outcross breeding, you should look for successful "nicks." In other words, find out the best litters ever produced by a particular stud dog and either buy from a repeat mating, or from a mating that duplicates the "nick" as much as possible. For example, pointer National Champion Red Water Rex probably produced his most consistently good puppies when bred to bitches sired by National Champion Riggins White Knight. In the world of setters, Ch. Mr. Thor probably produced his best litters when bred to bitches sired by Ch. Flaming Star. Find the best "nicks" and use them!
Linebreeding probably is the second most common method of breeding. This means either breeding dogs within a particular family, or stacking up pedigrees with dogs related to a particular foundation dog. This method intensifies the genetic input of the foundation dog or family, by putting a greater infusion of his genes into a litter of puppies. In linebreeding, there are also usually a lot of "outcross" dogs, when adds genetic variability.
Inbreeding is a more intense form of linebreeding, and usually involves matings of siblings, half-siblings or father-to-daughter crosses. Inbreeding intensifies the characteristics of the foundation dogs and will tend to result in more uniform litters. If you are working with great dogs, great things are possible with inbreeding, in that a higher percentage of the puppies will show the desireable characteristics of the great foundation dogs. But you must remember that the bad is passed on with the good. All dogs have faults, and inbreeding also intensifies the faults of the foundation dogs.
If one either linebreeds or inbreeds, selection of breeding stock is of vital importance. In other words, the breeder must carefully select dogs that exhibit the desireable traits of the foundation dog, but do not exhibit the dog's faults. Like all good breeding programs, this involves trying to stack the deck in your favor.
Elhew pointers are perhaps the best known example of a linebreeding and inbreeding program. Robert Wehle started by linebreeding from the great Lexington Jake, and all of the dogs in his breeding program trace back to this foundation dog. If you look at Wehle's "outcrosses" over the years, you will find Lexington Jake behind the pedigrees. More recently, Wehle has inbred strongly from his National Shooting Dog. Ch. Elhew Snakefoot. Most of the dogs that Wehle now uses for breeding involve one or more crosses to Snakefoot up close...and also trace back to old Lexington Jake 50 years ago.
An accepted rule of bird dog breeding is called "the drag of the race." Bird dog bloodlines will tend to go downhill over several generations, unless breeders work very hard to prevent this from happening. This is why it is important to look for "hot" field trial dogs in the pedigrees of hunting dogs. A field trial dog could be described as an extreme intensification of all of the desireable traits that make up a good hunting dog. To simply hold ground and keep dogs from sliding downhill over the years, breeders always must work hard to intensify desireable traits. That is triply true if a breeder hopes to improve his dogs. That also is why buying from so-called hunting dog breeding usually is a bad idea; the average pup from such matings will tend to be not as good as his parents. Breeding hunting dogs to hunting dogs usually amounts to breeding an average dog to an average dog.
Instead of breeding average dogs, breed great ones. Settle for nothing less. Look for the greatest intensification possible of desireable traits, and stack up your pedigrees with them!
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Total Posts: 194 | Joined Nov. 2001 | Posted on: 8:21 pm on Dec. 10, 2001 | IP
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Lou
Moderator
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Very good post John!There is nothing I could add to this other than tell folks that the Drag to mediocre in dogs is as big a problem as you have stated and needs to be looked at in all breedings.Good job John.<>< Lou
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Total Posts: 76 | Joined Dec. 2001 | Posted on: 6:45 am on Dec. 16, 2001 | IP
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quailsmith
Newbie
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Hi John. I'm new to this site and I just read your post. I've been breeding Pointers for over 30 years and I don't think I could have said it as well as you have. It's tough to learn how to breed above average dogs, even by going to trials. I found a book many years ago that turned on the light. It's no longer in print but it is available from Barnes & Noble in the used books. The title is "The New Art of Breeding Better Dogs", by Phillip Onstott. It's a great book and is written for the average guy to understand. Also, I just wanted to mention that I probably have more Red Water Rex and Riggins White Knight than anyone in the country. If you'll send me your address I'll send you some pedigrees I think you'll like looking at. Dale Davis. Breeder of: Hall of Fame "Jerry's Runaway Bandit"
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www.quailprogramvideo.com
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Total Posts: 3 | Joined Dec. 2001 | Posted on: 1:23 pm on Dec. 23, 2001 | IP
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John Yates
Moderator
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I have heard great things about Jerry's Runaway Bandit, and I would enjoy looking at your pedigrees. If you click on my name on this post, my email will come up automatically. In the past, I had good dogs out of both Red Water Rex and Riggins White Knight, and especially out of crosses of the two. I have a lot of their blood behind the pointers I have now, and I wish I had more.
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Total Posts: 194 | Joined Nov. 2001 | Posted on: 9:51 pm on Dec. 23, 2001 | IP
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Paul Grogger
Charter Member
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I have known John for a number of years now and can attest this method works. Good job. Even some of us back yard guys can see great improvement on what we do.
Thanks for the assistance.
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Paul Grogger
Suncanyon Kennel
www.suncanyonkennel.com
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Total Posts: 10 | Joined Jan. 2002 | Posted on: 10:47 pm on Jan. 7, 2002 | IP
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